What makes a good suit? What goes into the material and fit that separates the average from the best?
Taken from: https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/mmhsln/explain_nice_suits_to_me/
- Fabric: cheap suits often have manmade fibres mixed into the fabric, this includes polyester or nylon. These fabrics aren’t breathable, so they can affect comfort in a physical way, and they are very rigid, so they don’t move with the natural contours and motions of the body. High quality fabrics come from reputable mills, and from high quality plants or animals. The better the fabric, the longer the fibres, generally. High quality suits use the best fibres to make the best fabrics, and sometimes nicer fibres, like cashmere or vicuña. See below for more discussion on fabrics.
- Handwork: cheap suits will be machine made. This is fine, nothing inherently wrong with it, but nice suits will have handwork, which is stitching that is done by hand. When you have a hand padded canvas, this is when the canvas is sewn into the suit while the tailor bends and forms the fabric. This gives the suit a 3D shape, better drape, and just in general a nicer fit. This is also apparent in the shoulder, where a hand attached shoulder will have some shape to it, a machine attached shoulder will not. There are also aesthetic hand finishings that don’t really contribute to the function, like handmade buttonholes. They’re nice to have and cool to look at though, and people may notice them.
- Undercollar: the collar is an often neglected part of the suit, but it sets the stage for the lapel roll. A good suit will have canvassing in the collar to give the lapels rigidity and shape.
- Canvassing: a high quality suit will have a layer of horsehair (or other material) between the inner and outer shells. This gives the jacket improved flow, drape, and is just better for the physical suit. If the jacket isn’t fully canvassed then there is glue and fusible somewhere in the suit, which doesn’t breathe, doesn’t move with the body, and breaks down over time. Though modern fusible is much nicer than that of olden times, so don’t put too much weight on canvassing (though it’s important for a top of the line suit). I’d prefer a fused suit in a nice fabric than a canvassed suit in polyester. Canvassing though is the mark of a nice suit, and u/Ghoticptox explains it better than I here.
- Fit: nicer suits fit better, that’s a fact. Other people have said here that fit is king, and they’re right, to some extent. Cheaper suits are made to satisfy the bulk of the population, nicer suits still are, but to a lesser extent. They will also generally have better stylings — wider lapels, more seam allowance for alterations, smaller armholes, better linings, pick stitching. All these things contribute to the fit and finish of the suit, which are perceived by other people, and the wearer. For example, I can spot a Bar III suit easily. The lapels are generally skimpy, and glued at the seams, the shoulders are too wide, and the fabric cheap looking. Cheap suit makers don’t spend time developing their pattern and stylings, and it shows.
To answer some of your questions;
- There are different qualities of wool. The length of the fibre plays a big part, among other factors. Cheap suits will use cheap wool.
- If you get a Burberry suit, it may look good, but Burberry suits aren’t really that good, they’re not canvassed — though they do use nice fabrics.
If you want to talk about wool, and what differentiates it, which will probably answer most of your question;
“Drape” is one of the core concepts of tailoring. What you see on The Daily Show is fabric that drapes nicely. The drape of a piece of cloth or the clothing created from it is a description of the way it flows and moves with the wearer. Cloth with a light drape is very flowing, moving freely, almost like a liquid. “Stiff” or “heavy” drape is a feature of thicker, less mobile cloth.
When it comes to describing the qualities of a given piece of fabric, way too many terms can be used. It’s easy to get confused, especially when considering drape, because subjective terms like “light” and “heavy” can have different meanings.
When they’re applied to drape, they refer to cloth that flows more or less. The same terms can be applied to the cloth itself, but here they concern the overall thickness of the material. It’s now possible to make very clothing using cloth that has a very ‘light’ drape – and this possibility is not entirely a good thing.
Although the wool used in the outer shell of a suit has gotten finer, lighter, and started exhibiting very flowy properties, there are fundamental limits to the construction of a proper suit. This outer material is still sewn in a relatively traditional pattern, and it’s still subject to the same stresses and strains as older suits made of coarser wool.
This becomes a problem because super-fine wool takes creases much more easily than older material. It’s harder to care for, too. It needs to be pampered by cleaners and stored with extreme care in order to avoid permanent wrinkles. All this translates into a very expensive, very luxurious garment that is easy to ruin.
The overall fineness of wool is measured in Super numbers. Super 150s represents wool created from thinner fibers than wool graded Super 110s. In the past few decades, sheep ranchers and weavers have collaborated to make great progress in the fineness of the wool fabric they can create.
Where Super 150s was once the absolute limit of possibility, today weavers and tailors are building super-premium garments out of Super 200s wool. Although this fabric has an incredible feel on the hand, it’s not the easiest material to work with or care for. Like u/Metcarfre said, go to a nice store and feel the fabrics. The Super 120 fabrics will feel much smoother than the rigid touch of a polyester blend.
When shopping for modern formal clothes, people need to bear in mind the delicacy of these new “super” wools. It can be tempting to indulge oneself and splurge on clothes made of Super 150s, Super 180s, or even higher grades of fineness. Because of their fragile properties, though, these fabrics aren’t suitable for day-to-day wear. Keep this in mind when shopping and don’t get too carried away.
There are lots of quality resources online that detail how a suit should fit, so I won’t go into much detail here, and an especially good tailor will help you get the right, classic fit. Remember to not go too slim (I’ve made that mistake), a classic cut is more flattering and will last longer
- The shoulders should sit on where your shoulders start to drop, and should lay on your shoulder slope.
- The sleeve pitch should be correct when your arms are at rest
- The length of the sleeve should show 0.25-0.5 inches of cuff (this can be adjusted, except jackets with working buttonholes, they can’t be adjusted past about 0.5 inches, if you want, you can, but it becomes a $100 job)
- The jacket length should sit slightly above your first thumb knuckle when your hands are by your side, and should cover your rear
- When you raise your arms, the rest of your suit shouldn’t raise up as well
- You should have enough fabric on your chest to comfortably pinch about 1-1.5inches, no more or no less, or else it becomes too baggy or too tight
- Your pants should sit at your waist with no belt
- Your pant opening should graze the top of your shoe with some break (I’m a 1/3 break, or shivering break guy. Get a tailor that can give you a shivering break!)
- Your should be able to pinch about 1-2 inches of fabric at the thighs
Speaking about the finer points of the fitment of suiting;
The armholes are incredibly important, and allow the suit to fit much better, along with looking better when you move. Here is an image that describes what I mean. If you have a low armhole, or a largely cut armhole, like most off the rack suits, when you lift your arms, the rest of the suit lifts as well, there’s no separation. With small armholes, you have a separation between the chest and the arms.
The sleeve pitch should also be correct. This is often overlooked. Here is a reference image. When your arm is naturally by your side, there should be no bunching in the fabric. Unfortunately, not all arms hang the same. And there are often sleeve pitch issues in suits, that are quite expensive to fix, and usually not worth it. When you’re buying a suit, drape your arms naturally, and the fabric should fall flat with no pulls or wrinkles.
Another very overlooked issue is the slope of your showers versus the slope of the suits shoulders. The suits fabric should rest on your shoulders. Very commonly, a man will have sloped shoulders, but the suit will be square cut, and at the shoulder seam there will be a half inch of gap between the body and the fabric. You don’t want this, it creates fit and drape issues for the suit and doesn’t look good, especially when you start moving your arms and body.
Besides these things, ensuring no collar gap, good fit in the shoulders/chest/sleeves are all important, but those three details are often overlooked.
What about specific brands of suits?
$100-$300 range: You have suits like Bar III, Michael Kors, Lauren Ralph Lauren, DKNY, etc.. These suits often have inflated MSRP ($800+ in some cases) so you feel like you’re getting a great deal when you buy them. You’re not. They overwhelmingly use synthetic fibres, and when they don’t, it’s not a quality wool. They’re fused, and literally bottom of the barrel. I would avoid these unless in a pinch, and if you ever need to buy one, the Bar III is 100% wool and the best of the options in this range.
$200-$500 range: You have suits from Men’s Warehouse on the low end, and Banana Republic, and J. Crew on the high end. Men’s Warehouse suits are similar to the range below this, but sometimes have slightly nicer fabrics. Banana Republic (not factory) and J. Crew have suits in this range, often with fabrics from named Italian mills. Their construction (often fused canvas, so not worth your time) is questionable and their stylings quite poor. Jos. A Bank, and Indochino also fall into this price bracket.
$400-$700: You have online retailers that are focused on value. They generally (with the exception of SuitSupply) don’t have physical retail operations, so ordering can be tricky. Here fabrics from named mills become mainstay, and everything is generally half canvas, or deconstructed. Brands in this price bracket include; Cavour, Spier & MacKay, SuitSupply, Poszetka, Tagliatore, Pini Parma and Boggi Milano. You can sometimes find good deals on YOOX for Italian suiting in this range, but you need to know what to look for (a common theme)
$800-$1,300 range: You start to dip into the basic offerings of high end makers, when they’re on sale. I’d always recommend looking for a sale. Last year Canali at Saks was less than $500, while generally Canali can be found easily on sale in the $1,000 range. Brands in this category are fully canvassed, and like the lower bracket, use fabrics from named mills. There is some handwork on these suits, but not much, and not to the extent of a hand padded canvas. Brands in this range include; Canali, Ermenegildo Zegna (mainline, not ZZegna), Corneliani, Ring Jacket, and Boglioli. Generally brands with Italian influence, or heritage.
Once you get above $1,300, in the $1,500-$2,500 range you have some good MTM joints, both online and in person, and if you shop sales, can find brands like Isaia, Kiton, Ralph Lauren Purple Label on sale, and get into more niche Italian brands, like Orazio Luciano, D’Avenza, Sartoria Pastena, and Gabo Napoli (to name a few). In this range you should know what you want before buying, and these brands shouldn’t be your first suit.
You can get some good deals on custom suiting, but because this is a where to start thread I’m not going to include it. I can’t stress this enough; unless you’re familiar (not you specifically, but anyone reading this) with your measurements, the measurements of garments that fit you, and what measurements mean for the overall garment, don’t try to order custom suiting on the internet for your first, or even second suit!